Hub Heat- Calipers not fully releasing

[Gregg]

I was just doing errands around town and happened to check the hubs to make sure they were in '"Free". I grabbed the hub and holy crap it was hot. They were both in "Free" and both were hot. Is this normal or am I missing something big. We changed all the seals and bearings, u joints a year ago when we went to disc brakes. What tests should I do to make sure everythings a okay?
Thanks!
Shawn

[b]Update: Both calipers are rubbing on the rotors. I can't spin the tires more than 180 degrees. The hoses are new and unkinked. How would I get the calipers to retract?[/b]

Thanks!

[Viperwolf1]

Probably heat from the brakes. Grab the rotors and see how hot they are.

[Lila76]

Just spray it down with your big hose Mr. Fireman

[Moab Mike]

We can go through the hubs on Saturday and re-pack your bearings (nothing else) if you have the time.

[Gregg]

Just spray it down with your big hose Mr. Fireman

yeah yeah yeah...

The rotors were hotter than the hub. Burned my tongue! As long as you guys think its safe for the long southern trek, I'll see you on Saturday. Hopefully the only flames will be the ghost flames. (no comments regarding the driver!)

Thanks!

[Lila76]

We can go through the hubs on Saturday and re-pack your bearings (nothing else) if you have the time.

That's so funny. This will never get old!

[Jesus_man]

Yeah probably brake rotors. Go for a drive and not use your brakes and then see how the hub feels...

Seriously tho, good to check the grease in your bearings. That's the only other place heat could build up in that area.

[Kinder]

Maybe sticking brake calipers or the bearing preload is too tight. I don't remember mine being very warm even after a day of wheeling.

[Viperwolf1]

Maybe caliper sticking. He has the Ford disk conversion and I know the preload is/was right. Jack it up, spin the tires and see if they turn without much resistance.

[Gregg]

There is definately some resistance. I can spin them but they won't spin without me. I'm not sure how long they have been like this. Just on my way home (15 min) the rotors are too hot to touch (like me).

[RJLougee]

When you did the front disk conversion, did you change anything with the master cylinder? If you kept the stock drum style master, they have residual pressure valves in them that may be keeping the calipers from retracting enough.
HTH, Joe

[Gregg]

Thanks but no. We put in a new MC with the conversion.

[Jesus_man]

New calipers? Maybe time for a rebuild? I had to replace the piston on one that was corroded enough to hinder it's movement.

[Gregg]

Calipers are only a year old. Zilla, I wish I knew how tight the bearings were. I know I had 2 reputable members running the disc install. From what I have read, since its both sides I was guessing the MC push rod but it was always in context with a booster (which I don't have).

If I take the calipers off and the rotor is still tough to turn, can I assume the bearings (maybe spindle nuts) are on too tight?

Another thought: When I had the driver side sticking hub problem I put in springs from another hub set that were slightly taller. I did the passenger side to since I was at it.

Thanks--I'm trying to get this done tonight so i can take the Junk Yard Dog to the B-fast and SWAP meet tomorrow.

[Viperwolf1]

If I take the calipers off and the rotor is still tough to turn, can I assume the bearings (maybe spindle nuts) are on too tight?

Yes. Good test. Make sure hubs are unlocked and axle isn't turning with the wheels too.

[Viperwolf1]

Didnt you have them apart after Phil and Mike put it together? I thought you grabbed some parts from me. On a serious note, if so did you put the rotary lubricater in the right way as It only goes in one way.

Uh oh. Sounds like a voided warranty.

[Gregg]

I'll take the calipers off as soon as I get home and post up.

If the rotor spins easier the problem is the brakes.

If the rotor is still hard to turn then:
1. Check spindle nuts (which one do you tighten and then back off by a 1/4 turn--inside or outside?)
2. Put old springs back in
3. If it still doesn't spin--bearings (what grease would you recommend?)
4. Get hammered.


BTW- Zilla, don't think that I don't think that you are somewhat responsible for my avatar malfunction! On a serious note, I've had these hubs apart 2-3 times since and I don't recall any rotary lubricator. I hope you guys arn't fugging with me.

[Gregg]

Note to self: Don't look up " Lubrication " on work computers!

[Badlands]

Haha! LOL at your aviator Greg.


From Monte Python ; In Search of the Holy Grail.....I fart in your general direction!

[Shawns Fords]

I'll take the calipers off as soon as I get home and post up.

If the rotor spins easier the problem is the brakes.

If the rotor is still hard to turn then:
1. Check spindle nuts (which one do you tighten and then back off by a 1/4 turn--inside or outside?)
2. Put old springs back in
3. If it still doesn't spin--bearings
4. Get hammered.


BTW- Zilla, don't think that I don't think that you are somewhat responsible for my avatar malfunction! On a serious note, I've had these hubs apart 2-3 times since and I don't recall any rotary lubricator. I hope you guys arn't fugging with me.

Actually the easiest way to check for a binding caliper is to measure the temperature at each rotor, then go for a test drive and do some hard braking within a 2-3 mile range then measure the temperatures again and compare. you shouldnt have a noticeable amount of difference in temperature from side to side and approximately 60/40 front to rear. If you have a restriction in one or way too much heat up front then you will know if the master cylinder return port or a line or a piston is sticking. This eliminates a ton of hard work and will let you know if you have anything wrong. Usually you will get between 300-400 deg F in the front and 200-250 deg F in the rear unless its some sort of special HP brake system. If all checks out in your brake system then you may have bearing problems. Bigger tires on them bearings is hard on them. I used to recommend to my customers with lifted vehicles to repack between 10-15k instead of 30k.

[Gregg]

I don't have a thermal gun and taking the wheel and calipers off wasn't a big deal. Either way I took the calipers off and the rotor spins. Good news right. Now thhe brakes...

Now with year old hoses, calipers, MC (no booster) I'm looking at the calipers trying to figure out why they are not releasing (on both sides).

[Kinder]

1. Check spindle nuts (which one do you tighten and then back off by a 1/4 turn--inside or outside?)
... I don't recall any rotary lubricator. I hope you guys arn't fugging with me.

Fugging with you is putting it lightly!

[Kinder]

If it's both rotors then the problem is upstream towards the MC.

[ZOSO]

I thought I read somewhere that the residual valve is in the distribution block? I know its that way on my 79.

[Shawns Fords]

I don't have a thermal gun and taking the wheel and calipers off wasn't a big deal. Either way I took the calipers off and the rotor spins. Good news right. Now thhe brakes...

Now with year old hoses, calipers, MC (no booster) I'm looking at the calipers trying to figure out why they are not releasing (on both sides).

So were the wheels locked up tight? Or just not turning freely from the resistance of the pads? If you have the ability to blow the pistons out you can see sediment built up on the caliper pistons and check for finish wear. That will tell you if the pistons are sticking or not. Do this with someone that knows how to as it can be dangerous. Is the brake fluid really old and dirty? That will also tell you if it is possibly brake related. Black and greenish colored fluids indicate sediment and severe oxidation. I probably have more information but its late on a Friday and im exhausted, ill check back tomorrow after work.

[Gregg]

At the SWAP today we thought we may have had a solution to the calpiers not releasing: The H block or (What we thought was some kind of proportion valve) was not blocking the rear drum brake pressure thus always keeping a steady force to the front calipers too. However, the "H block" (see pic- sorry it's partially blocked by a heat shield) does not regulate pressure. So here is the latest test:

The brakes were bled and I tried to spin the front driver rotor (wheel off) and it took a good amount of force. I loosend the brake line bolt to the caliper (to release the pressure) until it dripped about 1 tablespoon, retightend the bolt, and tried to spin the rotor again. It hardly had any improvement and still took some force to move. I loosened the bolt again and tried to spin the rotor and then it started to spin but the brake fluid had a steady stream. I tightened the nut before the MC got too low. Its back to being tough to turn.

[Shawns Fords]

The pads dragging on the rotor is normal. If its really REALLY tight then it has a restricted return port in the master cylinder, or both hoses are kinked or both calipers have sticking pistons, and that is not normal even for a brake problem because why would both go bad at the same time? The proportioning valve controls direction and volume of fluid to the front and rear axles. But pressure is at the master itself.
I would bleed the system really good then see if it improves.

[Justin]

Zoso may be on to something. On some master cylinders there is a valve that is designed to keep the fluid from returning to the MC in drum brake applications. You pull it out with a disc conversion. Maybe this step was missed? Checking it will require pulling the line from the master cylinder, so you may want to take a look at that before bleeding a ton more.

[RJLougee]

Thanks but no. We put in a new MC with the conversion.

OK, but which one?

[Gregg]

Hey guys. Since the calipers didn't release I traced the pressure back (from the calipers) towards the MC. Long story short the pressure released when I removed the center brake hose (between the H block and the front diff) . I called around until I found a auto parts that had the right one and popped it in. I flushed the brake lines, bled all the brakes and took it for a hard braking test drive. Got home 15 min later, jacked it up and spun the front tires and they went around 2-3 times before stopping (before it would go around 1/2 turn). I may give the brakes another bleed in the next few days and call it done.

Thanks for all the advice / time you all gave posting up and at the SWAP / Snow Bash breakfast. Bummed I didn't bash but I needed today to get it figured out/done.