Engine/transmission combo conundrum

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DanHall
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Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by DanHall »

Assuming everything is as advertised I'm going to buy a '98 Mountaineer with 121k miles and body damage tomorrow. 5.0L engine is the main reason but now I'm thinking about keeping the 4R70w behind it. It would be nice to have overdrive since I'm currently running the stock 3-speed manual and with 4.88s and 35s it is tapped out at about 60-65 MPH.

A couple of issues with keeping the Mountaineer tranny are the expense of the adapter and the need for shorter driveshafts. Just extra $$$ but I don't want to drop a bunch on this since it started out completely unexpected. I have seen where some folks have had success with the ZF adapter on an AWD 4r70w but there is an issue with a seal that I haven't figured out yet. That would save a fair amount on the adapter and shorten the power train by ~4.5". And of course, I'll have to figure out a new crossmember and shifter but I'm not too worried about that.

I have a fuel pump in the basement and will have to run new lines. Get the ECU up to Garry to get rid of the security key stuff and whatever else (second bank of O2 sensors probably)... Figure out which way to go with the cooling - new radiator or crossover hoses.

I kind of dig the manual tranny but the 3-speed isn't the long term answer and I'm not necessarily opposed to an automatic. The newer, more reliable power train certainly holds some allure as well.

What am I not thinking of? Hopefully nothing too important but I can still change directions at this point.
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phyler
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by phyler »

Great timing. I'm starting down the same path. I posted a thread that had a list of everything I could think of. I'm staying with my NP435 and will be selling the 4r70w that came with mine.

Will be great to compare notes with you.

Adam
1975 Ranger Edition that I've had longer than I've been without it.

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akaFrankCastle
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by akaFrankCastle »

Again, perfect timing. We're about to pick up the AOD adapter for the 4R70W in the club truck. We mulled over the ZF adapter hoping to save some coin on the build, but the uncertainty of the ZF adapter mod/seal requirements led us to believe a proven solution would be the better option.
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1972 Sport, 302, 3 speed with old school Duff floor shifter, T shift Dana 20 with JB Fab twin stick, 4.11 gears with Trac-loc, Lincoln hydroboost, Chevy disc conversion, WH gas lift gate shock kit, 33" Duratrac tires on slots and about 2.5" of lift, Stroppe installed: bumper braces, dual shocks on all four corners, GM power steering, trans cooler mount, auto shift column, rollbar.

The Terrible One
1972 Sport uncut, 302, C4 with 1974 column , T shift Dana 20, 3.50 gears w/ limited slip, 1966 U13 Roadster kick panel, and factory power steering.

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sykanr0ng
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by sykanr0ng »

With the 4R70W or AOD OD gear ratio you may find yourself wanting 5.13 gears with 35's.

With a ZF5 4.88's work out right, but there is more overdrive in the autos.
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Dukietown
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by Dukietown »

Be interested to see how these all pan out. I'm interested in doing the same combo some time soon.
DanHall
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by DanHall »

And so it begins...
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Rox Crusher
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by Rox Crusher »

You'll love the 4r70w.

If for some reason you don't choose to use it, I would be interested it buying it
1977 Sport, 351w OBDII EFI motor, 4R70W auto, 4:88 gears, ARB lockers, 3.5" suspension, 33" tires.
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by EFI Guy »

Just to throw another option out there. I'm told the NP205 will bolt directly to the AWD 4R70W, no adapter needed. I'm sure you need to fab a cross member and change drive line lengths. But, it may be a stronger, cheaper option. I think NP205s are still a dime a dozen. However low range is not as low as the D20.
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phyler
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by phyler »

I looked into the np205 and it seems people want more for them than I'm willing to pay. Most of the ones on CL are like $300. For that price, I'll pay the extra to have the Dana 20. Maybe I'm just cheap. :-) I don't know what you can get one for at the yard though.
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DanHall
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by DanHall »

EFI Guy wrote:Just to throw another option out there. I'm told the NP205 will bolt directly to the AWD 4R70W, no adapter needed. I'm sure you need to fab a cross member and change drive line lengths. But, it may be a stronger, cheaper option. I think NP205s are still a dime a dozen. However low range is not as low as the D20.


Yeah, I thought about it and understand they're stronger but the D20 is no slouch either. I would have to find a Ford NP205 as I understand the other makes had the outputs on the passenger side. More importantly for me, I don't really want the higher gears in the 205.

Thanks for throwing out the option though, I really do appreciate it!
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by DanHall »

Rox Crusher wrote:You'll love the 4r70w.

If for some reason you don't choose to use it, I would be interested it buying it


If I don't use it I'll let you know but I'm pretty sure I will at this point.

Since your signature says you're running one with 4.88s and 33s how do you think it'll do with 35s?
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Rox Crusher
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by Rox Crusher »

DanHall wrote:
Rox Crusher wrote:You'll love the 4r70w.

If for some reason you don't choose to use it, I would be interested it buying it


If I don't use it I'll let you know but I'm pretty sure I will at this point.

Since your signature says you're running one with 4.88s and 33s how do you think it'll do with 35s?


I would use it with the 4.88 and see how you like it. I think the difference between 33" and 35" tires would be around 150 rpm on the tach.
1977 Sport, 351w OBDII EFI motor, 4R70W auto, 4:88 gears, ARB lockers, 3.5" suspension, 33" tires.
DanHall
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by DanHall »

Did those of you runnning this combo keep the VSS? It looks like the sensor is in the tailshaft housing which will be replaced the the AA kit. The only option I'm aware of is the new sensor that attaches to the D20 and combines the VSS signal with a cable driven speedo. At least one of the vendors sells them but it sounds like a lot of folks don't run one.
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sykanr0ng
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by sykanr0ng »

DanHall wrote:Did those of you runnning this combo keep the VSS? It looks like the sensor is in the tailshaft housing which will be replaced the the AA kit. The only option I'm aware of is the new sensor that attaches to the D20 and combines the VSS signal with a cable driven speedo. At least one of the vendors sells them but it sounds like a lot of folks don't run one.


As I currently understand it if you use the 4R70W you need the VSS to use the PCM controlling the 4R70W.

The earlier AOD is non computer controlled as are manual transmissions, and you can do without the VSS or use it.

Keeping the VSS means also keeping the EGR, as far as I know.

EFI Guy is the one to ask for sure.
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Viperwolf1
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by Viperwolf1 »

4R70W has it's own output shaft speed sensor. It doesn't need VSS in addition to that.
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Rox Crusher
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by Rox Crusher »

I run mine successfully without the VSS.
1977 Sport, 351w OBDII EFI motor, 4R70W auto, 4:88 gears, ARB lockers, 3.5" suspension, 33" tires.
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by EFI Guy »

I reprogram the PCM to use the OSS instead of the VSS.

The only situation where you would need the VSS is if you were NOT running the 4R70w and wanted to keep EGR or Evap.
DanHall
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Re: Engine/transmission combo conundrum

Post by DanHall »

EFI Guy wrote:I reprogram the PCM to use the OSS instead of the VSS.

The only situation where you would need the VSS is if you were NOT running the 4R70w and wanted to keep EGR or Evap.


Perfect, Thanks!
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