bed liner over home made lizard skin

[Gunnibronco]

I have to do something about the heat coming up through my floor boards. Since the dash, seats, & wires are all out, I figure this is the best time to do something about it(or when I get back to work on the Bronco).

Right now, I've got a 15 year old Herculinered floor.

I was going to put down the bubble wrap or foam duct as insulation, then a rubber floorliner or carpet. But when it boils down to it, I don't want either. I think Lizardskin, then foam or bubble, then carpet/rubber mat would be the best for sound & heat. But I get too much ice, water, mud, wet dogs, etc in my truck, and don't want the chance water would get between the floor & mat.

Since Peel-n-stick, bubble or foam, and Lizardskin all need to be covered, I think doing homemade Lizardskin and covering with bed liner would be my best option. Our shop uses a good bedliner (Scorpion) and are getting good texture & coverage with it. Since I can get it wholesale & do it myself, this option is cheaper than any carpet or rubber floor mat kit. And I think its my best, most functional option. I will have to strip all the remaining Herculiner, and that will suck.

Has anyone seen/heard any reason not to do this? I've been reading everything I can, but haven't seen any confirmations of good or bad results. I did read that the ceramic beads shouldn't be added directly to the bedliner, since they can be crushed if the bedliner is compressed by heavy objects or high traffic areas. Aparently, crushed microbeads don't insulate well.

Thoughts?

[Gunnibronco]

Just stumbled on this stuff. It looks like it is made by the same people as the Scorpion liner, so I may be able to get it cheaper. But I doubt it.

http://www.amazon.com/Als-Liner-ALS-HNR ... 941&sr=1-1

http://alsliner.com/alsHNR

Its not expensive, no mixing glass beads, and its specifically designed as a base for bed liner.

Its latex based, just like Lizardskin & the homemade stuff.

[Gunnibronco]

Well it might not suck as bad as I thought. 1 hour, maybe, with a scraper and the tailgate is done. I think a cup brush will finish off the nooks & crannies. My Herculiner stuck to the paint, mostly the paint pulled off the metal.

P1020427.JPG

At this point, I'm 99% sure I'm going to do HNR and/or homemade stuff on the whole inner tub & top, and also on the firewall, and under the truck, basically between the frame rails. With the front clip off, trans & tcase, & exhaust removed(plus I need to drop my fuel tank & swap sending units), it will be about as easy as ever. I can get to most the firewall, except the stuff right behind the motor.

I'm thinking homemade stuff under the truck. I'll put it on with a brush/roller at home before the front end, and trans & tcase are installed. Then I'll get it together & take it to the shop. Do final prep & masking of the tub there. I don't think my home compressor will keep up with a schutz gun, plus I'd rather keep the bedliner mess at work. I think I'll do the HNR inside the truck. I like that its specifically made for use under bedliner, and its the same brand as the bedliner we are using. If I don't use HNR, I'll put the beads directly into an epoxy primer and apply before bedliner. Eliminate the latex layer.

[Eck]

Looking forward to seeing the results. I used Raptor Liner and added microspheres to that. So far it seems to be fine. If I had one complaint about the bedliner is that the texture really attracts and holds onto dirt.

Also-- I like the new avatar!

[landshark]

my tub is done in linex. i wasnt a fan of it before but honestly its held up well and its super easy to clean - i just use a hose or a brush when dry. I do have a vinyl flooring kit for it but I put 1/2" horse mat on most of the flat surfaces and between that and the bedliner its not too bad. The wind whistling between the cracks is a whole other matter ;)

[Gunnibronco]

I've got horse mat over my Herculiner. Its better than nothing. After I got my new exhaust, the bed floor got very hot. The mat helped, but I'm sure its not really a great insulator.

The Herculiner texture is horrible collecting dirt. We can smooth out the texture when we apply the bedliner. I think that will be easier to clean than a more aggressive texture. Thanks for the ideas.

[Justin]

I did a bunch of reading on this awhile back there is concern that the bed liner will eat the latex paint over time, causing it to peel. I'd be tempted to do what Eck did and just put the microspheres in the bed liner unless you're planning to haul a bunch of heavy stuff.

[Gunnibronco]

I did a bunch of reading on this awhile back there is concern that the bed liner will eat the latex paint over time, causing it to peel. I'd be tempted to do what Eck did and just put the microspheres in the bed liner unless you're planning to haul a bunch of heavy stuff.

Interesting. I hadn't read that, but I wouldn't be surprised, at all. I wonder how the HNR product does in the long term.

I keep coming back to putting beads into epoxy primer. Its the preferred coating under a bed liner. It sticks like to bare metal and paint. I mentioned it to my coworker (with lots more experience than me) yesterday, and he thought it was a good idea. Since my paint is coming up, I'm going to have to epoxy prime anyways. I don't think the HNR could be installed to bare metal. Our paint supply rep is in tomorrow, and I'm going to ask. I also think it will be cheaper than the HNR. Looks like you can get about 1 gallon (roughly 1.5# I think) of the beads for about $27 shipped. I might bring in a gallon and do a test panel with epoxy primer & bed liner the next time we shoot a liner.

[Jesus_man]

Just waiting to see what you come up with! I'd like to follow suit!

[ZOSO]

I too am curious as to what you come up with.

My plans were to spray down lizard skin in both the thermal and sound. Then laydown insulation and cover with carpet. I'd like to spray the bottom side too. Maybe raptor liner with the beads mixed in.

[Gunnibronco]

I spoke to my 2 coworkers, both with 25+ years bodyshop experience, and the paint supplier today. The paint supplier sells Lizard Skin, and Al's/Scorpion liners, but knew nothing about Al's HNR product.

I feel that my coworkers gave me the great advice on what best to use for "homemade" stuff.

They both think mixing the beads into epoxy primer is the best solution under bedliner. First, spray one coat without beads, let it flash off, and follow up with coats with beads added. Waiting between coats just long enough for it to flash off (wet on wet application). Then spray the liner on the "dry", but not cured primer (again, wet on wet application).

Regarding firewall/under floor application both thought a synthetic enamel paint would work well. It is catalyzed, so it will be durable, its cheap, and it "sticks to everything", so it is a good candidate for use on a not-so-clean, difficult to prep surface like the underside of a 40 year old truck.

The paint rep didn't recommend using LS on the inside of the truck. He said, its pretty exclusively used on the firewall/underside. Although he did say its tough enough for use in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, and will survive well without any protection. It will not hold up to a tough environment like the bed of a truck. He said its best used outside, because it keeps the heat from soaking into the metal tub. He recommended 1st applying the sound deadener, then the heat resistant stuff. To prep, he said, use a powerful degreaser, then pressure wash, then use an adhesive promoter. They have too much LS right now, and he's going to get me a special price on some. We'll see how much that is. He didn't recommend any homebrew solutions. I'm sure this is because there is no real data on what works or doesn't, and he doesn't want to be responsible for giving out bad info. Understandable.

IF his price is right, I'll probably use the LS product under the truck. I'm thinking/hoping that it is better than the homebrew stuff. It should be for the price, and the fact that its been engineered/designed to work. If his price is too high, I'm going to try the beads mixed into a synthetic enamel, like my coworkers recommended. I'm still thinking of using beads in the epoxy primer under the bedliner. I feel its a no-loose situation. I'm going to have to epoxy prime before bedlining anyways, so adding $25 of beads to the mix doesn't hurt. Somewhere, in the last couple days, I read that the noise dampening of the ceramic beads continuously increases with more material. But the heat reflection doesn't increase beyond a certain thickness. So if anything, it will help quiet the truck a little more.

I'm going to use something inside my top, eventually. The top needs some work, and I want to paint it & tint the windows. I will pull the top when I do the liner, and I'd like to leave it off for the summer, and do a quick refurb on it. But I don't know if that will happen this summer. It seems like I already have enough projects planned to take up my summer & more.

I don't see why it couldn't be added to bedliner directly. I can see the beads being damaged in a heavy use area like a truck bed, but in a Bronco, it would probably be fine. As long as the surface is prepped, and the liner stays stuck, it should work good under the truck, too.

[Justin]

Huh, I'd always thought that LS was made for interior used. That has me thinking about a nice, thick coat on the firewall at some point.

[Gunnibronco]

I think it really can be used inside or out. I know I was reading about people using on the firewall & the bottom of the floors & inside. I'm sure it would make a difference even if it was only used inside. Maybe slightly less effective, but still worth while. I was only considering using it inside, until I looked over my truck and realized most my firewall & trans tunnel are accessible right now.

[Gunnibronco]

Well, the paint guy just dropped off some Lizard Skin, for a customer's car. Although HE said to apply it to the bottom of the truck, the INSTRUCTIONS on the can says the best application is to interior surfaces. So, Justin was right. I was thinking that if the LS were applied to the exterior & chipped or damaged, it would let water between the LS & tub & promote rust. I'd feel better if the LS product was a catalyzed product, that would be more similar to products used on vehicle exteriors. Even though latex paints are used on house exteriors, it just doesn't seem to be the right answer to exterior use on a vehicle. Houses are rarely damaged by flying rocks or misguided tools. Plus they don't tend to rust.

Since I haven't had a real answer on applying bed liner over the LS, I'm still not sure what to do.

I'm still leaning towards putting beads into epoxy primer & bed lining over that, and maybe doing some synthetic enamel & beads under.

I just don't know. I'm thinking of posting up on CB & the Hamb and seeing what they say.

[Gunnibronco]

I posted up at the Hamb and got some good replies.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thre ... t-10912180

Also had a derp moment, and learned a lot too.

It seems that the stuff is pretty tough, and well suited for application to the bottom of the car. A few responses from people who have had it on their cars for years and had no problems with chipping or water infiltration. One guy noted how difficult it was to sandblast paint from a bare metal surface. Others did reply they had very good results with the homemade stuff with latex paint, and alkyd enamel.

Then I actually looked at their web site. Derp! I guess I never looked specifically, but it never came up in any Google search. So that is their bad.

Their site says it can be applied inside or out, or both. The flexibility of the product gives it good impact resistance (see sandblasting comment above). It can be bed lined "in certain applications- call first." That alone scares me enough to not do it. It says its fine as a floorboard without carpet/covering, if painted, but won't hold up to harsh treatment like a bed liner.

I keep going back and forth about what to do. I hate to say this, but after all this, I might just get the Al's Liner HNR product. I can buy LS @ $50/gal. Realistically, I think it will take 4 gallons to do sound, & heat control (2 gallons each). I can get HNR @ Amazon for $45/gal, and only use 2 gallons, since its heat & sound control in one. The deal breaker is that, with HNR, I only have to prep the inside of the tub, which I'll do to bedline it anyways. Prepping the underside sounds like an unnecessary PITA.

I'll go with my Plymouth, and probably LS & Dynamat {or similar) the whole thing. But the Bronco is never going to be a quiet vehicle. I just want to hear the radio on the highway, and not sear my legs in Moab again.

[ZOSO]

bump. Anything new?

[Gunnibronco]

I've decided what I'm going to do, but need to get a lot done before bedliner. It was really a no brainer.

I'm going to use Al's HNR, under Al's/Scorpion bedliner.

A. Its made by a bedliner company, specifically for under bedliner. If I were going to do LS or a homemade product, I'd have to prep the underside of my truck, or top coat it with bedliner and hope it doesn't blow off in a few years. Two bad choices, I think.

B. LS uses 2 separate products for sound and heat, HNR is both in one. HNR's coverage is 44 sqft/gal at its specified thickness. LS's coverage is about 1/2 the coverage/gallon of HNR. Plus, HNR its cheaper per gallon. I can use 2 gallons of HNR at $45/gal or 4 gallons of LS at $100/gal.

I'm surprised more people aren't using it instead of LS or the homemade variants. For $90 to do my whole tub, I don't see THAT much benefit to trying a homebrew job to save a few bucks. Maybe its not as good as LS, but its just my Bronco.

I have to get my floor cut out & rebuilt around the Atlas & ZF, before bedliner. I also want to finalize my ammo can/storage situation & rewire first. I'd like to fill all extra/old holes in the tub & firewall before HNR & bedliner.

I'm making progress, but slowly. I feel like I've been pulled in 100 directions this summer, and doing everything but working on my truck. I need to start doing more in the evenings after work, my weekends just seem to evaporate away, before they even start. I'm having DBF (Dead Bronco Frustration) flareups recently.

[Justin]

I made a commitment to working on mine every day, even if its just turning a bolt a few times. More often than not I spend half an hour to an hour. It's way sped up the pace of progress, and the small bites of progress have also helped with both irritation and motivation. I've go a string of about 45 days going, and the bigger that number gets the more motivational it is.

[Gunnibronco]

You are right, I'm trying to get motivated again.

I worked on my remodel at frantic pace for 6 or 7 months, and I think that drained me. Hopefully I get the drive back soon. That said, I think I have balanced Bronco work, housework, and even some fun this summer.