Building a better ZF5 slave cylinder fitting

Post by **Digger** » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:41 pm

Hey guys, I got sidetracked on my bumper project by a transmission issue. While I have the thing apart, I'm taking a shot at an improved AN fitting for the ZF5's slave cylinder. This is just a start. Eventually I would like a full blown quick-disconnect that will interface with the factory quick-connect and provide an AN-4 fitting.

Either way the goals of this project are:
1) Bring the aftermarket line connection OUTSIDE the bellhousing, thereby making the vehicle more serviceable in the event of line damage
2) Use standard AN/JIC fittings, allowing the use of off-the-shelf braided steel lines, available from several retailers or in a pinch, a hydraulic store.
3) Move away from proprietary components, as they leave the owner more exposed to sourcing issues down the road should the supplier fail.

Challenges:
1) No commercial solution for our application
2) Currently available similar solutions are AN-3, I would like AN-4 if possible
3) I will have to work in stainless, because I don't have a low cost plating solution
4) Sourcing the correct O-ring is currently a challenge

Possible alternatives
1) There are some aftermarket solutions that incorporate a similar quick-disco for a T56 trans. They are expensive, proprietary, and I'm not sure the fitting is exactly the same. There is not enough info to justify spending $100 on a hunch.

Most people are familiar with the Russell's clutch to AN-3 fitting

I took measurements from the Russell's fitting and the line currently on the truck, since I have read people having to modify the fitting to make it work. From what I measure they are the same and jive with each other within reasonable manufacturing tolerances. After taking measurements, I overlaid a picture onto the CAD sketch to confirm angles.

Then modeled the rest of the fitting with AN-4 features on the other end.

Currently I'm stuck until I find a source for the O-ring. It is standard dash-number dimensions, but I haven't found a source for the X-profile in EPDM. McMaster only carries Viton and Buna-N.

I'm posting here on the chance this pans out and other ZF owners would be interested in such a solution.

Cheers.

Post by **Eck** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:11 am

Looking forward to following this. It'd be also nice to have the quick connect be something that closes the system off so it won't leak fluid out of the slave or let air in.

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Post by **Kinder** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:46 am

Subscribed

Post by **JGZ** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:52 am

Try Rockets seals in Denver for the seal..

Post by **Jesus_man** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:24 am

Subscribed! My ZF is currently exposed too...

I also think us ZF'ers would love to see a Slave external to the bell housing making it serviceable without having to drop the trans. I've never seen a setup in person, but sounds like Big Block applications have it.

Post by **pgilbeau** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:02 am

Subscribed and interested in this solution.

Post by **Digger** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:22 am

JGZ wrote:Try Rockets seals in Denver for the seal..

I'll give them a call. I think we've used those guys at work before.

Post by **Gunnibronco** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:35 am

I'd be interested in the final product too.

Why don't you whip up an external slave retrofit kit while you are at it. JK. Thanks for sharing.

Post by **Digger** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:41 am

Just some more interesting bits from today:

1) Jegs list an aftermarket throwout bearing that states "ZF and T56" applications along with Dodge B-vans (interesting)
http://www.jegs.com/i/McLeod/673/1400-22/10002/-1

2) Here is a guy on Explorer Forums that cut and welded the Russells fitting to the stock line to make it longer.

3) Here are some screen shots of various clutch quick disconnects. My hunch is that whoever designed this, the Big Three are all using the same fitting, but need to confirm with a junkyard run.

Comparison.jpg

Look at the throwout bearing above. Sure looks a lot like the Ford unit.

Post by **Eck** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:56 am

I have some leftover fittings and lines from my various attempts at fixing my Slave if you want to come by and grab them to mock or play with.

Post by **Digger** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:45 pm

Eck wrote:I have some leftover fittings and lines from my various attempts at fixing my Slave if you want to come by and grab them to mock or play with.

Definitely. I'll text you if you'll be around later this week or weekend. Do you have the Male and Female quick disconnects?

Post by **Eck** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:52 pm

Yep- I should be around so just let me know.

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Post by **landshark** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:08 am

I have the external slave zf setup on my bronco. I think Kirk was looking at converting his but ran into something preventing it. Let me see if I have some pics of the mount. Basically it's just a shift fork sticking out of the housing and a piston mounted to the out side of the bell housing to actuate the fork.

Post by **landshark** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:19 am

http://almostmadeit.com/g/galleries/130 ... G_2615.JPG

http://almostmadeit.com/g/galleries/130 ... G_2616.JPG

http://almostmadeit.com/g/galleries/130 ... G_2617.JPG

http://almostmadeit.com/g/galleries/140 ... G_0159.JPG

Sorry not awesome pics. More than happy to shoot some on the bronco.

Post by **Digger** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:46 am

Right off the bat I'm hitting a road block with this O-ring. I have checked with ~20 vendors and no one stocks a -107 size, quad profile, EPDM O-ring. They are as common as air in Buna-N or Viton, or in square or round profiles, but I cannot get an exact match to the OE without placing a $300-$500 special order of o-rings.

At this point, I may have to experiment with a square o-ring's sealing quality over the quad profile.

While an external slave retrofit could be done, (Hey, its only money and time, right?) it would not be practical after all the custom machining of the Windsor block bellhousing. It would almost be easier to start with a 460 ZF5 and make the bellhousing and clutch adapters. Personally I've had good luck with the internal slaves and I've own and serviced them for 20 years now in Bronco IIs, Rangers and now the ZF5. It seems most issues are related to poorly made parts or user error. Now that doesn't reduce the frustration, but of the issues I've had, mine were mostly self-induced.

Post by **Gunnibronco** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:48 am

I was just kidding around, don't take me seriously.

Post by **Eck** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:50 am

Maybe a long shot but you may call BC Broncos and ask them if you could purchase like 10 of the O rings they use. They obviously have a source for them. Maybe just tell them that you have had issues with the O rings going bad after some years and you would like to have some trail spares so you aren't SOL. Come to think of it, I am not 100% sure their stainless line comes with an O ring or not.

Post by **Digger** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:48 pm

BIG THANKS to Eck for hooking me up with a pile of parts to play with!

Here is the MALE fitting I'm focused on:

And his mate:

Both sides of the quick disconnect have internal moving parts that are permanently swaged into place as shown by the RED arrows:

To see the magic happening inside, I chucked up the male fitting in the lathe and parted off the swage area:

Then pulled and cleaned the interior pieces and catalog their dimension, materials, etc.

From there, I CAD modeled the OE connected and cross-sectioned it to get an idea of how it goes together.

Then mocked up a replacement concept:

Now I need to get a shopping list going to make a prototype. :Welding:

Strike2 · Post by **Strike2** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:20 am

Very nice work reverse engineering the parts needed! The coupler almost looks like the male quick connects on the top of Corney kegs for home brewing :beer:

sorry my mind wandered for a second lol

Post by **akaFrankCastle** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:41 pm

Post by **Digger** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:35 pm

akaFrankCastle wrote:]

ROFL as I sit here in front of my computer loading Kodi on a Rapsberry Pi, while backing up my SolidWorks ISO, while shopping McMaster, etc.

Post by **akaFrankCastle** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:37 pm

Digger wrote:
akaFrankCastle wrote:]

ROFL as I sit here in front of my computer loading Kodi on a Rapsberry Pi, while backing up my SolidWorks ISO, while shopping McMaster, etc.

Do you do any work with Arduino stuff? I think I saw that you have in your build thread.

Post by **Digger** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:31 pm

akaFrankCastle wrote:
Digger wrote:
akaFrankCastle wrote:]

ROFL as I sit here in front of my computer loading Kodi on a Rapsberry Pi, while backing up my SolidWorks ISO, while shopping McMaster, etc.

Do you do any work with Arduino stuff? I think I saw that you have in your build thread.

Yes. Did.

Arduino is a great development platform for learning programming and I played with it for a number of years. But the more I learned, the more limited it got. I used a few workarounds to program a stand alone chip for my control panel using the Arduino development environment (IDE).

Right after building my control panel, I ditched the Arduino environment and started programming in straight C and use the Atmel programming studio for my IDE. This opened up a lot more function and more microcontrollers in the Atmel family (which the Arduino is based on) Most of the time when I'm programming, it is for a specific purpose and the ability to build a project with a $1.25 microcontroller instead of a $30 Arduino dev board is a bonus.

Post by **akaFrankCastle** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:49 pm

You and EFI Guy need to talk.

Post by **Eck** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:26 pm

Have you solved this yet?

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Post by **Digger** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:08 pm

Had to take a time out for re-assembling my ZF5, doing some work around the house and some work travel.

But I have my small bits now and starting cutting parts last night. Hopefully by the end of the week, I'll have the other parts cut and my new AN lines in hand to test the fitting this weekend.

20170313_215652.jpg

Post by **Eck** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:11 pm

Digger wrote:Had to take a time out for re-assembling my ZF5, doing some work around the house and some work travel.

But I have my small bits now and starting cutting parts last night. Hopefully by the end of the week, I'll have the other parts cut and my new AN lines in hand to test the fitting this weekend.

20170313_215652.jpg

Nice. You source the gaskets?

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Post by **Digger** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:39 pm

Eck wrote:
Digger wrote:Had to take a time out for re-assembling my ZF5, doing some work around the house and some work travel.

But I have my small bits now and starting cutting parts last night. Hopefully by the end of the week, I'll have the other parts cut and my new AN lines in hand to test the fitting this weekend.

20170313_215652.jpg

Nice. You source the gaskets?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes and No. I purchased the same sized O-ring in a round profile. I will test it out, but by building the male half of the quick-disconnect instead of the straight AN adapter I proposed earlier, I'm avoiding needing that X-ring.

Post by **Digger** » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:27 pm

I made good progress last night, staying up too late, but I finished the prototype.

Making the main body:

20170314_204809.jpg

Milling the hex:

20170314_205726.jpg

Getting ready to part off and bore the interior.

20170314_212309.jpg

I avoided making some of the parts by reusing the OE pieces. (The molded plug, spring and outer plastic release ring)

20170315_001022.jpg

20170315_000920.jpg

20170315_000854.jpg

I'm impressed how well it fits so far. Plugging it into the mating part, I get a good, solid click with no wiggle. Removal was as easy as can be for this style connector.

20170315_000712.jpg

I need to wait for AN line and the AN-4 master cylinder adapter to perform pressure testing this weekend, so fingers crossed.

Post by **Jesus_man** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:29 am

Digger wrote: so fingers crossed.

Yeah, us too!! Good work!

www.ColoradoClassicBroncos.com